Let’s Talk
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May 4, 2009 at 8:04 pm #24504
gamer47
MemberKiller
I see what you're saying but we no longer use the “eye for an eye” method. The term eye for an eye was literally based off of previous societies when.. literally.. if someone poked out your eye (for example) you were given every right to personally go and poke out their eye. Similarly if they stabbed you in the arm you were to stab them back in the arm. They were societies based off of personal retaliation.
Today that method is outdated, illegal and impractical both economically and due to the fact that many people who commit crimes are not caught.
Punishments cannot be inhumane no matter what the crime is that is committed as the criminals are still humans. They have rights just like you and me. Also, you must take into account mental wellness and mens rea which is “the guilty mind.” Murder is not always murder if an individual's intentions were not so. If there is no mens rea, there is usually no conviction.
I will give you real life examples. (If you don't like hearing about violence, stop reading now and continue reading after the asterics: ***).
Example 1: There was a man who had only one eye because he gouged out and ate his other eye. This man later murdered his entire family. When the police found him, he had the hearts of his family members in his pockets. He was given the death sentence. While in prison waiting for his day of dying, he gouged out and ate his only remaining good eye. The courts decided that he was mentally ill and maybe the death penalty was not appropriate after all. They were considering alternative punishments that would maybe help this man because clearly, he's not well.
I didn't follow up on the case to see if they ended up executing him or if he is now in an asylum… but you see now how far the legal system goes. If this man had been in his right mind, there would have been no waver in his initial sentencing.
Example 2: A woman was at a party passed out on a couch. She awoke to a man having his way with her. She screamed, the man fell off of her seemingly startled. He turned himself in for rape. Upon further investigation it was found out that he suffers from a medically validated condition known as sexsomnia. He got away with raping the woman because he was asleep while it was happening and therefore there was no mens rea.
When I read the case study for this I thought it was the most ridiculous thing I had ever read… how can someone do something like that and be asleep? Low and be hold there are other situations in which someone has murdered while being asleep. These people had no intentions of committing the acts they committed. The courts recognize this and attempt to treat them rather than physically punish them back. It does leave very little closure for the victims and that is a problem that has been recognized.
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“these punishments would put extreme fear into a criminal. and immediately you would see a 50%+ drop in crime.”
Absolutely invalid comment. Based on deterrence studies there are 4 prime factors to look at when wanting to deter crime in a society.
Two relevant variables:
– Certainty of punishment: The probability you will be punished. Is it likely or not?
– Severity of punishment: I will give you an example.
If you're writing an exam and your professor tells you “If you cheat on this exam I will KILL you but I won't be watching as you write the exam.” You probably think to yourself.. wtf, right? VS. The prof saying “If you cheat, you will fail the course. I will be watching and I will have other people watching”
For which scenario are you less likely to cheat?
Types of deterrence:
– Absolute: this refers to the very major changes to the criminal justice system.
i.e. If the police force goes on stike and does nothing. This would be scary. Chaos would no doubt arise. Thus dramatic change is significant change.
– Marginal: This involves playing with small percentages that the average criminal does not perceive.
i.e. Up the police force by 3%, or buid a new prison = no effect on the risk of getting caught.
Thus absolute deterrence coupled with certainty of punishment IS working. It's been proven. It's more effective.
Is margincal deterrence working? Likely not.
Does severity of punishment work to deter? Not really as it happens in isolated cases. People don't recognize this as something plausible. They say “yeah well it happened to him, but it won't happen to me.”
This has all been validated.
Also, publicly televising punishments is in my opinion, not necessary. Whatever happened to censorship? Based on your example… how are you any better for feeling joy from watching another man be brutally murdered the way he brutally murdered another. If murderers are sick for killing, then are we not just as sick for killing? No matter what tag of “justice” has been applied. Do you see what I mean?
May 4, 2009 at 8:12 pm #24505MemberPokenny said:
Sorry, I’ve been staying off this tread simply becasue of all the silly theroies that have been typed down, like we are not from this planet…. Mars has oceans and so on.
…
FACT. If we are the only intellegent life in this universe, then it is a big waste of space.Sorry for the rant, but I couldn’t contain myself. I love atromagy and astrology…
I'm glad we got more people in on this discussion. The rant was welcomed lol. You shouldn't need to contain yourself, speak your mind. Sorry if anything I said in particular offended you. That wasn't the purpose of my posts.
Oh and I lol'd at the waste of space fact.
May 4, 2009 at 8:16 pm #24506P0kenny
Memberlol, no, noone offened me. I just can’t contain it when I see things that are in your face wrong lol. I know about the waste of space fact isn’t a fact… but it is in the same light… does that make sence?
May 4, 2009 at 8:18 pm #24507MemberPokenny said:
lol, no, noone offened me. I just can’t contain it when I see things that are in your face wrong lol. I know about the waste of space fact isn’t a fact… but it is in the same light… does that make sence?
Yes definitely. I didn't lol because I thought it was ridiculous. I lol'd because the way you wrote it was funny and because I agree!
May 4, 2009 at 8:24 pm #24508MemberOther things I know about space… The colour of space is infact Baige and it is theroised that the shape of space is either like a doughnut or shaped like a saddle.
May 4, 2009 at 8:32 pm #24511KILLER369
Memberhmmm, i see what you mean, but the justice system in canada and america are alot more stricter than britain.
in britain, murderers get off with a extremely ridiculous time period, such as 5-10 years, they usually get out in under half the time. also for their time in prison, they have HD TV’s & PS3’s.
if a person has mental health problems and knows it then he/she should seek guidance and treatment.
this next part you almost definatly won’t agree with:
if a person is not capable of living in society and there is no help for that person and we can tell all this before his/her birth, then that person shouldn’t be born.
pokeny:
have you personally done any field work on this matter? or are you just believing what people are saying?
if you are believing in what people are saying then i can’t hold that against you as im doing the same thing. but the first chance i get im going to aquire hard evidence of our TRUE past by doing field work, i just need to start my adult life first, and when im around 25 i should be good to go.
however, im 100% positive that something is going to happen very soon that will change the way most people think.
May 4, 2009 at 8:38 pm #24512Memberactually space is more sphere or egg shaped.
PROOF:
the gravity from the centre of space is pulling all the mass around the centre to make a smooth ball. the same as a planet or galaxy.
there would also be more than 1 universe in space PROOF:
solar systems> galaxies> universes> space> ?
obviously theres sections between the said sections, i just made it a little shorter.
May 4, 2009 at 8:59 pm #24514MemberKILLER369 said:
hmmm, i see what you mean, but the justice system in canada and america are alot more stricter than britain.
in britain, murderers get off with a extremely ridiculous time period, such as 5-10 years, they usually get out in under half the time. also for their time in prison, they have HD TV’s & PS3’s.
if a person has mental health problems and knows it then he/she should seek guidance and treatment.
this next part you almost definatly won’t agree with:
if a person is not capable of living in society and there is no help for that person and we can tell all this before his/her birth, then that person shouldn’t be born.
That's interesting! If given the opportunity to learn more about Britain's legal system I'd like to do so. There must be reasons affecting the time durations of prison sentencing.
As for people with mental health issues… the people who are mentally unstable are usually the last people to realize it. They can't help themselves because they aren't aware that there is anything wrong. For example.. studies on patients with schizophrenia. They literally have a break from reality. They can, see, hear, touch, smell, or taste things that are not actually there. But to them it's REAL. It's psychological and sensory. I can give you a specific example of a woman who was schizophrenic. Everywhere she went, she saw a clown, a man and a little girl 3 paces behind her. She climbs up to the 6th stair, looks back and they are on the 3rd. She climbs up to stair 9, they are on 6 etc. No one else could see these people. To us this may seem completely absurd but to her it was 100% absolute reality.
As for the last part… there is no way to tell who is or who is not capable of living in society before they are born. You don't know who has the predisposition of being a murderer. Or who has the predisposition for a mental illness. Also, think of all the other factors affecting an individual… maybe they are born with a predisposition for the aforementioned but during their lifetime they don't encounter the trigger to their predisposition. They are fine.
To give you the benefit of the doubt, let's create a hypothetical. Assume we did have the means to know who is unfit for society before they are born… and all who are deemed unfit are aborted. By what standard do you measure who is capable and who is incapable of living in society?
Think about this.. there is “no help” for cancer patients… sure there are treatments but no cure for say, cancer of the brain. Now we know everyone is born with benign cancer cells. And certain people have the misfortune of those benign cells becoming malignant. Would your abort before born theory extend to those individuals? Some may view that they essentially become an economic hindrance on society. Is that reason enough for them not to have life in the first place?
I personally do not agree at all (as you guessed lol). And I know the cancer example is extreme but extremities do need to be considered when talking about what we are talking about.
May 4, 2009 at 9:14 pm #24515Membertrue enough. but your 1 side of a pollygon and im 1 of the others.
but would you agree that if a person was going to be born without limbs and mentally retarded. is there any point in that person living.
or another example:
don’t take this personal but if you had a stroke and lost the ability of self awareness, would you want to continue your life? or if your child was diagnosed with a mental issue that he/she couldn’t support him/herself, and needed extreme care throughout his/her life would you want it to be born?
because i think that its not only unfair on the baby but if it was born imagine the amount of recourses needed to sustain it. in my opinion, its just cruel on everyone.
May 4, 2009 at 9:16 pm #24516MemberKiller, if this was true about the galaxys getting pulled towards each other… When then has it been proved that they are infact moving away from one another? They are infact getting pulled apart by the power of the universe expanding at the speed of light. That isn’t a fact but it is a highly thought theory. Most of the stuff I put as fact, has been proven and yes I have heard all of them from highly though of sceintest. Fact is that we know more about space than our own planet. We know that the crust of our planet is roughly 18 miles thick, but we don’t really know what is under the crust fully to state clearly what is under it. Except mantle, or what everyone knows it as Lava, and it is only called lava when it reaches the earths serface druning a volcanic eruption.
I highly recomend you go to a libary and read up on space, before you start making clames on what is happening to our univers. Oh and it goes, Planets -> Solar Systems -> Galexies -> Universe. Space is everything in the universe, it isn’t something else.May 4, 2009 at 9:16 pm #24517Memberforget to say, i enjoy having a discussion with you. its very rare to talk to somebody who has understanding such as yourself or shade.
May 4, 2009 at 10:05 pm #24518kingofgames73
Memberim sorry but i believe the `mentally retarded` have a right to live! ok there annoying at school and everyone else stays away from them…but my sister has epilepsy ( and various other problems) she cant stop it, she had no choice in the matter. she is now 20 years old it may take her a while to do things but she can do them (at one point the doctors said she may never be able to walk again! but she now can only her right hand cant function that well) just not in the way a normal person can. Also Also you say is there any point in a disabled person living, now isn`t that a bit similar to the death sentence? except the only thing a disabled person has done wrong is to be born. whilst someone on death sentence could have committed murder. Now i think there is a big difference. Sorry if i got anything you said confused or if anyone disagrees with me it`s only my opinion
May 4, 2009 at 10:41 pm #24519Atomic-G
MemberKILLER369 said:
in britain, murderers get off with a extremely ridiculous time period, such as 5-10 years, they usually get out in under half the time. also for their time in prison, they have HD TV’s & PS3’s.
where did you hear that from murders get 30 years in prision per murder so if they kill two people its 60 years and if they had hdtv and ps3s in prision then its not a propper prision yea american prision might be worse than britians i agree with that but the rest i really dont know where you got that from
also whilst where talking about prision does anyone know how much compensation that man in england got the one who was in jail for 29 years for murder but then found out it wernt him?
May 4, 2009 at 11:14 pm #24520MemberAtomic-G
its on the news all the time…..
kingofgames:
im sorry to hear that, and when i say this i really don’t want to offend you in any way, but do you personally think that the way she is is better than death?also you may say that you cant put a price tag on people, but how much does it cost to buy the special things that she needs? how much does it cost to make your house more suitable?
you will disagree but extreme disabled people are burdens on society. i do sympathise as i also live with a disabled grandfather. but he still has self awareness and (limited as it maybe) mobility. but their because of arthritis in his old age.
i have nothing against people who generate thes disabilities after their born, but if you kno that their going to get them before their born then save them the cruelty of a harsh life that they clearly won’t be able to function in.
May 4, 2009 at 11:50 pm #24521XeroTheGreat
MemberKiller, Everyone has the right to live, whatever they may suffer from. It should be their choice if they wish to live or not.
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