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May 4, 2009 at 11:53 pm #24522

kingofgames73
Member

i believe she has a good life, she may not be able to do stuff `normal` people can do, but she finds a way around most things as do all mentally disabled. I see your point of view but i do disagree for surely living a life (even if not being able to live it to its full potential) is still better than not living at all. As for the price tag? well you cant put a price on life (you have probably heard it a million times but its true imo) and my family has enough money too pay for what she needs. I guess i can understand yoif it was a poor family but i believe no one should have the right to decide whom may live or die (we are not hitler`s after all). And above all a disabled person in any family is still a family member! Some may cost more money too keep than overs but humans aren`t like dogs, if they cost too much money or appear to be in pain, we do not put them down…..once again my opinion, oh and btw no offence taken 🙂

May 5, 2009 at 12:15 am #24523

shadeblack
Participant

this thread really hit it off, huh?

Space:

a couple of you are very confused about space.

The universe is expanding. well, it is and it isn't. Light travels in a straight line through space – therefore allowing the exapansion. many stars are born all the time, therefore contributing to the expansion as well. But there is so far, no 'end' to space… How can it expand if it has nothing to expand into.

Galaxies are indeed being pulled together by the gravitational force of the supermassive black holes in most of the very large galaxies. A good example of this is our own galaxy, the Milky Way. Both The Milky Way and our neighbouring galaxy, Andromeda is heading for collision. when that happens, the supermassive black holes in the centre of both will unite and the two galaxies will become one. When this happens, our solar system (if not already dead), will either be obliterated by the force of the impact, or thrown off into space.

Pluto is indeed not a planet. it is actually an object which originated from the kuiper belt, which is a form of asteroid belt further out in our solar system. Along with pluto, there is Haumea and Makemake. The Kuiper belt is made primarily of water, ammonia and methane.

FACT: Almost everything we talk about concerning space is theory, and NOT fact.

Here's something i was thinking about a while ago.

Imagine a vacuum cleaner. I will now compare the universe to it.

You turn it on. by doing so, you've started the Big Bang, sucking up dirt, and giving the universe creation.

The bag inside the vacuum cleaner is our universe.

the vacuum cleaner never turns off. it's always giving more and more.

poke a hole in the bag and you've got yourself your very own universal black hole. the dirt is forced through that hole when it gets too close by the gravity/current of the air flow inside the bag.

if you put this on our own universe, this makes you wonder what a black hole potentially could be. what if it's just a hole in our bag? 😛

Nothing can escape it because it's being ejected to the outside of our universe. what's outside of space itself? this is called an Ultimate Question. There is no answer as we cannot ever possibly comprehend it. This is why Space and Time is all theory and no fact.

May 5, 2009 at 12:59 am #24528

KILLER369
Member

so… were pretty much screwd?

what if humanity created a sort of planet ship. a space ship the size of a planet and we moved with the expanding space? could we survive?

or are we forever doomed to death? which kinda efin sucks.

shade i have questions for you:

1) wat the f***ing hell are you working in tesco for?
2) how do you know so much?
&
3) why arn’t you a scientist?

May 5, 2009 at 1:15 am #24532

gamer47
Member

KILLER369 said:

true enough. but your 1 side of a pollygon and im 1 of the others.

but would you agree that if a person was going to be born without limbs and mentally retarded. is there any point in that person living.

or another example:

don’t take this personal but if you had a stroke and lost the ability of self awareness, would you want to continue your life? or if your child was diagnosed with a mental issue that he/she couldn’t support him/herself, and needed extreme care throughout his/her life would you want it to be born?

because i think that its not only unfair on the baby but if it was born imagine the amount of recourses needed to sustain it. in my opinion, its just cruel on everyone.

I think there is always a point to a person living. If an individual feels that their life situations are too much too cope with, then they should be the ones to make their own choices. I do not feel it is right to take away anyone else's chance at life.

With the stroke example you gave to me, I can't answer 100% knowingly seeing as I'm not in that predicament… but judging who I am as a person now.. my answer would be yes. I would still want to live. Simply because I love life and I love seeing other people love life. Would I be bitter about the situation, of course. Would I figure out a way to take what's negative and make myself a stronger person because of it? Most likely.

Also I do not have any children but if I did make the decision to bring a child into this world, I would do everything in my power to keep him/her safe even if s/he was more dependent on me throughout their life. Obviously my concern for the child would be heightened when I became of old age but hopefully I would have helped my child establish a future for him/herself and make sure there is someone else there to help them when I am no longer able to.

Also if you look at people who society deems 'disabled' 'handcapped' etc. They manage to do things I cannot even fathom. Theres a guy who played rugby in opposition to my high school team and he had one arm. Hes an amazing athlete. Another example.. theres a blind man who gets on and off the bus everyday at the same stop as me. He is able to get to and from where ever he needs be with seemingly no difficulty. Im honestly baffled at how he knows when to cross the street.. sighted people sometimes struggle with that!  I saw a documentary once on a boy who was born with no arms. He taught himself to write and play the drums using his feet. Also I dont know if this name is known in the UK but Terry Fox is well known in Canada. He was diagnosed with bone cancer at the age of 18 and was forced to have his right leg amputated 6 inches above the knee. As a result of his hardships and the hardships he saw from other patients while in the hospital he decided to do something remarkable. He trained for 18 months in preparation and then embarked on a journey to run across Canada raising money for cancer research. Unfortunately he died before he could complete what he set out to do.. but it doesnt really matter. He left behind a legacy. We now associate him with the Marathon of Hope which is celebrated annually.

Most able bodied individuals wouldnt even be bothered to do what he did. Its a true inspiration and just goes to show how much is taken for granted everyday.

I guess the bottom line to all these stories is that there are some things in life you cant control, but for the rest… life is what you make of it. You can let your illness, disability or ability define you. Or you can turn around and define it instead, live life to the fullest and inspire others to do the same.

In talking about this, I want to point out how I hate the limitations of language.  Looking at the word itself; 'Disabled' .. um what? Most 'disabled' people are actually more enabled than the rest. But that's a rant on language I can save for a different time lol.

May 5, 2009 at 1:29 am #24533

gamer47
Member

Oh and one more thing I forgot to add… if we can delve back into hypotheticals for a moment…

Instead of having the means to figure out if a person is going to have physical ailments and then not have them live like you suggested; would it not be better if we could completely understand the human genome… including the genetic mutations causing disease or birth defects and then have the means needed to simply remove or replace those mutations thus correcting the defect or disease.

If I recall correctly this idea has been talked about in biology… I learned about it a few years ago but I dont know how much progress has been made toward this, if any.

To give an example.. say a family lineage has a history of Huntingtons disease. A newly wed couple wants a child but know that the chance of their kid  having Huntingtons is.. oh, 50%. Would is not be amazing if doctors could pinpoint the exact part of the genetic makeup that holds the disease and rectify it prior to the child being born. The child would then be born guaranteed to be free of that disease.

Of course there are issues with this as well… moral dilemmas and the like. Also we dont live in a perfect world… so its sort of a pipe dream. I dont deny any of this, but its just an alternative to your hypothetical about people not being born.

May 5, 2009 at 2:23 am #24540

P0kenny
Member

Did you know you are 6 times more likely to do harm to yourself than have anyone else harm you?

Space… I love space and the universe, I find it compelling and fasinating theirfore I read up on anything and everything you can about space. I personally think that everyone who has an opinion about the universe is intitled to it, and therefore shouldn’t shoot down other peoples theroies. Sure you can disagree with them but only to the point where if you start disrespecting the theroy should you stop.

Now everyone of the things I previously said was a fact, was indeed a fact. If you want to go into theroies then we shall 🙂

Some people believe that a black hole sucking in matter untill it doesn’t exist, but if that is the case why hasn’t it happened already? There must be something spewing matter back out there, like a white hole of some kind.

Another theroy that I believe, that a black hole does suck matter into it but simply transports you like a wormhole… Now I know this can never be proven in my life time, nor several generations ahead of us… and probably wont be proven simply because if someone were to dear to go in one… That person would never been seen again. Weather or not because they were crushed under the emence gravity or because they were infact transported to another regien of space.

We as a race of human beings will never find out what things are or how things came to be. Sure their could have been a ‘big bang’ and sure it could have been some anti matter coliding with some matter, but where did it come from? How did it get there in the first place? Also seeing how mind bogolingly big the universe is, what were the chances of it happening in the first place?

Whislt you think about that, think about this… If we did understand the universe, and we did know how everything came to be… What would we do? What would we have to give us imagination? What would we have to be curious about? I personally think that nothing would be the answer to that, we would live for nothing… I think that it is our imagination and curiousaty that drives is to work things out. Sure we get it wrong but if we didn’t get it wrong, what would we have to learn from?

I think that the nature of the universe helps us as inderviduals to see how small we are in the grand picture of life, we already know that in the life of this planet (if it were a 24 hour clock) we came to exist 2 minutes to midnight. To the life of the universe? Who knows? 0.0000000000000000000001 seconds to midnight?

I ask you this, what would you do if everything possible became facts and not theroy. If everthing was worked out down to the solid truth. What would you do?

May 5, 2009 at 2:49 am #24543

shadeblack
Participant

KILLER369 said:

so… were pretty much screwd?

what if humanity created a sort of planet ship. a space ship the size of a planet and we moved with the expanding space? could we survive?

or are we forever doomed to death? which kinda efin sucks.

shade i have questions for you:

1) wat the f***ing hell are you working in tesco for?
2) how do you know so much?
&
3) why arn’t you a scientist?

oh yeah, we're so far beyond screwed it's laughable. there are so many ways we are already destined to die. apart from that, theres the rather large meteor heading towards us, there's the sun dying, the moon leaving the earth's orbit, global warming, natural ice age, the next super volcano is overdue, greenland is melting too fast for us to save, and soon it will cause sea levels to rise by metres at a time. The earth's protective layers are getting screwed over right now as well – if that goes, then chances are, we die by the suns radiation, and energy that's constantly bombarding the planet from supernovas happening light years away. The earth is also overdue for the magnetic poles to switch – during which the magnetic field around the world will dissapear, causing mass destruction to the Earth, and it's inhabitants. and believe me, there's so much more as well.

Some of those aren't for millions of years yet, but some of them could be as soon as a few years time, which is quite a scary thought.

Interesting idea about colonising a synthetic planet. but I doubt the world will ever be able to in time. we don't have the resources needed to make one. we don't even have the science needed to make one. living in space would also be a mighty task of coming up with some form of endless food supply, and among other things, oxygen.

are we forever doomed to death? …YES!

1) wat the f***ing hell are you working in tesco for?

Because I can't get a job. I didn't do very well in school because I eventually began feeling the NEED to sleep. this may sound strange to some, but generally, I'll sleep for about 12 hours average. I got very depressed, and started having many dreams and nightmares. on top of that, I would not physically be able to wake up. My mum (more than once) reported to me that she had woke me up, spoke to me, to which i spoke back to, but I wasn't actually awake. Hundreds of times I would turn my alarm clock off or sleep through it without even knowing it. I've been reported to sleep walk on a couple times as well. With the amount of sleep problems, I struggled to keep up in school as I even started sleeping during lessons, sometimes straight through them as well… And I even once slept through a lesson with my eyes wide open.

~ I have these sleep problems still today. They started when I was 12.

2) how do you know so much?

From a very young age I had to grow up very quickly. When I started pre-school, I was chaotic. one day I threw a chair at the teacher, to which my punishment was to spend one hour, every day, in the headteacher's office on my own. With that amount of time, the only thing a 5 year old can do is think. I thought so much that I settled down and became the person I am today. I believe that without that punishment, I would not know the horrific things I do. As a natural pessimist, I sometimes scare myself (and not in a good way).

I wouldn't say i know loads of stuff, but I know a fair amount simply because with all my school / sleeping problems, I had to teach myself most of the stuff i know.

3) why arn’t you a scientist?

Surprisingly enough, one of the one subjects I was truly great at was science. As a kid, I was fascinated by space, dinosaurs, geography (the scientific side of it), and also computer science. In primary school, I excelled at these subjects. In secondary school, I had several problems which like i said before, lead to my downfall. the teachers believed that I didn't care about anything, and that I was always depressed and tired. they even sent my to the school's counsellor to talk to. Despite my sleeping troubles, I was actually able to go into a science lesson, not pay attention to anything the teacher said, and still answer the questions to anything i was asked. for my GCSE's, I was predicted an E for science because I believe the teacher did not feel I could do any better. I got full marks on the Science Double Award GCSE exams. I don't know exactly how… I just went in there, and answered the questions. as it turned out, I was correct on all of them apart from one.

I tried going into A-level science with Physics, as that interested me the most. Unfortunately, my sleep problems were so severe at that point, I couldn't keep up anymore.

Why am i not a scientist? because without at aleast an a-level, I'm not ever gonna be one. ~I'm just not smart enough 🙁

____________

Sorry for making that so long!

May 5, 2009 at 3:51 am #24558

shadeblack
Participant

@pokenny

“Some people believe that a black hole sucking in matter untill it doesn’t exist, but if that is the case why hasn’t it happened already? There must be something spewing matter back out there, like a white hole of some kind.”

Actually, supermassive black holes shoot out a jet of high energy photons when they 'feed'. one recently occured, and it's travelling at the speed of light, destroying life in it's path. it could actually have a devastating affect on our, and many other planet's protective fields.

“Another theroy that I believe, that a black hole does suck matter into it but simply transports you like a wormhole…”

it's generally believed that a black hole is a field of gravity, whereby the gravity has grown so large that that even light cannot escape it's grip. if one were to enter a black hole, they would not live. there is an Event horizon, a point where the gravity would change so drastically that your body would stretch. one part of your body would stretch at one speed, while the part of you closest to the entrance would not stretch as much. as this same point, there would probably a blinding light, where all the light energy being forced in is still trying to escape. at that point, light is still travelling at the normal speed of light, so this blinding light would always be there.

This is generally what's believed to be the accepted answer to what's inside a black hole. I think what you're saying is, if someone could somehow find a way to live through the onslaught of entering one, what would happen once you're inside it? Now THAT'S a good theory. I once watched a computer simulation of a black hole, which normally ends at the point of the centre. but this particular simulation was left to carry on simulating the effects after entering one. The results were amazing! the computer simulation began act almost completely in reverse! you'd pass through the event horizon, pass the blinding light and somehow out 'the other side'. it really was a stunning simulation. The simulation itself was portrayed basically by a colour only. it wasn't like cgi video of someone going in and witnessing it all. it was the kind of simulation whereby if you were on drugs, you would totally trip out on. lol.

so by theory, and i must stress theory alone, computer simulations show that there is a possibility of something beyond a black hole. maybe a wormhole in space… maybe an entrance to a whole 'nother universe? who knows.

but, if we were somehow able to survive getting in, we would also need a way to get out, and this can only be done, by being FASTER than the speed of light. so… we'd need some form of sci-fi hyperspace drive, along with a vessel that is able to withstand infinite gravity.

and that's the beauty of theory. it opens you up to your imagination!

“I ask you this, what would you do if everything possible became facts and not theroy. If everthing was worked out down to the solid truth. What would you do?”

Since you're asking that question, I'm sure you already know that the answer is, it just won't happen. ~We will never know everything. NEVER.

But for the sake of playing ball, If in a hypothetical situation, we did know everything, then I assume we'd still have to survive the enslaught of that truth. we would still have to battle our ways through space and time in order to survive. But actually, I'm pretty sure that we (as the human race) would kill ourselves. because knowing everything would mean we could DO anything. and that would cause nothing but chaos. it would be, THE END!

May 5, 2009 at 4:16 am #24562

P0kenny
Member

@ ShadeBlack

You make exelent points, I’ve seen a black hole computer demastration as well and I found it fasinating. I think (computers aside) that it puts life into prospective. Also I completely agree with you on the fact that if we were able to learn everyhing there was to learn we would eventually kill oursleves because without proof that for example ‘God’ exists and proof that he did not or doesn’t exist would bring cahos to the world also.

It is amazing what people believe these days… The fact that we only have 8 planets in our solar system is a big shock to some people and will remain sturn that Pluto is a planet. Even though it is smaller than our moon. Just out of interest, if we were able to fly into space, and I am not talking about rockets… I am talking about being able to fly to other planets with ease and without cost, where would you like us to go? I would personally like to go to Alpha Centuri simply becasue I would like to find out if they are right in thinking there is a habitable planet there and it would be interesting to know if intelegent life does live there.

May 5, 2009 at 4:39 am #24569

shadeblack
Participant

we do actually have another dwarf planet (even with it's own moon!) on a 44/45 degree angle on our sun. it's also roughly one third bigger than pluto! and called Eris.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Eris_(dwarf_planet)

as for flying out into space… i don't know exactly where, but i must confess that part of me wouldn't mind flying into a black hole for a laugh! haha!

but yeah, the search for life would certainly be thrilling… you'd be talking about a ship that can travel light years with ease though. there's just no way The Earth can afford to spend anymore on combustion engines. we need to find a way of creating a cleaner, energy efficient engine for both space travel, and normal life.

There are actually a couple hundred or so exoplanets similar to Earth. 'they' keep finding more and more planets similar to Earth, it's just a shame 'they' can't study them up close.

'OGLE-2005-BLG-390Lb' specifically has an orbit of ten years! that's 3650 days for one year! haha! can you imagine the daily news on that planet? “Mother of two died a week ago at just 2 years old!” lolz!

May 5, 2009 at 4:51 am #24570

P0kenny
Member

haha! Just out of interest, Were in the solur system is Eris? and is that the one that moves round the sun in a day?

May 5, 2009 at 11:27 am #24578

shadeblack
Participant

it's roughly three times the distance of pluto!

hard to think that something that far out is orbiting our sun..

May 5, 2009 at 12:16 pm #24580

kingawol
Member

KILLER369 said:

well what i would think as being acceptable for causing extreme pain upon a person for example say a man runs into a nursery and slowly butchers everyone inside, the statement he then gives is that it feels good. that man should then be given the exact same punishment as he inflicted upon the women and children. he should also recieve his punishment after being brainwashed into believing that he is going to hell to recieve even worse punishment. then on the day of the punishment certain parts of it should be televised to make an example of sick individuals such as himself.

that was an example.

or another example:
a person beats a victim till the victim is neer death. the man that caused it should go away to a stinking rotten prison for a 100 year sentence, or up for parole in 25 years to prove that hees capable of living in society again.

these punishments would put extreme fear into a criminal. and immediately you would see a 50%+ drop in crime.

actually the death penalty doesnt stop people from murdering , raping , torturing etc… because they DON'T THINK THEY WILL BE CAUGHT…. so whilst you have ideas ,they actually dont work (btw if you think they're too easy on criminals check how Lethal Injection and Electric Chair mess up , pretty close to torture at times imo…) and anyhow , if you're the parent of one of the children of your example , i m behind you 100% if you get back at the murderer , but i disagree strongly with any government taking care of it.society would be fighting their fear , not punishing an action , nor preventing one.

l8scent : his 'chelsea fan' incident is fictional (dont even recall that in the 80s, but hey , i dont know everything) as you'll find us chelsea fans to be really bad at being beaten up and set alight.lol but i must admit that kind of thing does happen with football , which is really sad

May 5, 2009 at 12:29 pm #24581

kingawol
Member

KILLER369 said:

Atomic-G

its on the news all the time…..

kingofgames:
im sorry to hear that, and when i say this i really don’t want to offend you in any way, but do you personally think that the way she is is better than death?

also you may say that you cant put a price tag on people, but how much does it cost to buy the special things that she needs? how much does it cost to make your house more suitable?

you will disagree but extreme disabled people are burdens on society. i do sympathise as i also live with a disabled grandfather. but he still has self awareness and (limited as it maybe) mobility. but their because of arthritis in his old age.

i have nothing against people who generate thes disabilities after their born, but if you kno that their going to get them before their born then save them the cruelty of a harsh life that they clearly won’t be able to function in.

killer , i've made up my mind , and i agree with you : you're not fit to be alive , kill yourself , you're ignorant – whatever you like to think – because you quote wikipedia and the 'news' , and also keep saying 'its been proved' when nothing indicates it.. sorry to anybody else i offended.

and sorry to shade , your comments are too technical for me.

May 5, 2009 at 12:30 pm #24582

shadeblack
Participant

aww 🙁
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